When does a human embryo truly become human? A little story might help to clarify this question. In 1921, a hard-working, Jewish tailor left his dear wife at the abortionist on the way to work. He worked long hours for little pay, and they already had five additional mouths to feed. At the end of his work day, he returned to the abortionist to pick up his wife. However, the abortionist hadn’t taken her yet. The impatient husband saw this as providential and scooped up his wife and brought her home to eventually have her sixth.
On May 20, 1922, a previously unwanted baby was born was born to Fanny and Joseph. Not only was this embryo human, but on June 15, 1945 this embryo became Milton Mann, my father. In 1945, he married Toby Katz, and two years later in 1947, I was born. That little aggregate of cells, which was my father, in a sense, contained me, and from this same aggregate my daughter, Leora, came forth in 1972, and her three daughters after her. Following me, Gary came forth in 1950 and Richard joined us in 1956. Although we never constituted the “foursome” that Dad had been hoping for; nor did we even become esteemed doctors or lawyers, but instead – and perhaps more importantly – we continue to cherish to memory of the one who beat the odds and survived the abortionist’s scalpel, someone who loved us in his own quiet and determined way.
When does a clump of cells become a human being? When the egg extends an open-door (or membrane) to the sperm? I do not have the wisdom to pick this question apart, but I do know that, even at the beginning, there was something precious in my grandmother’s womb, and I believe that there was something providential in its protection.
Mann: When does a clump of cells become a human being?
ReplyDeleteWhen it gains the attributes of sentience (occurs in the womb I believe) or person hood (you could probably argue this happens sometime after birth - perhaps years) or something similar?
Mann: When the egg extends an open-door (or membrane) to the sperm?
If we extend it there, then that argues for something special about certain combinations DNA, and defining that line would be difficult if not impossible - what happens if it turns out my DNA falls ouside of what is "human"?
I think the catholic church claims that the soul is implanted at conception, but of course, there is no evidence for this (or for souls in general), so this argument fails (the case of identical twins is also troubling - do they share a soul?).
Mann: I do not have the wisdom to pick this question apart, but I do know that, even at the beginning, there was something precious in my grandmother’s womb, and I believe that there was something providential in its protection.
Something precious doesn't mean it was a "person".
The something providential can be attributed to you not existing should things have gone differently that day - it's an understandable view to hold.
Havok,
ReplyDelete"Something precious doesn't mean it was a "person"."
Huh?
Well, claiming that something has value doesn't grant it personhood (and the rights that most people would associate with that).
ReplyDeleteYou seem to be making an argument against abortion, and stating that there was something precious to your grand mothers unplanned pregnancy. Obviously there was, as your grand parents didn't end up abort, but this claim doesn't mean that every single pregnancy is "something precious".
Probably still not making a clear point though, am I :-)
Havok,
ReplyDelete"Well, claiming that something has value doesn't grant it personhood (and the rights that most people would associate with that)." Why not?
Aren't we more "precious" when we gain experience?
ReplyDeleteA cell is only a potential person. It becomes a real person when educated.
Manns world, are you pro death penalty?
Q,
ReplyDeleteOnce you throw away the "sanctity of life" orientation in favor of a "quality of life," you denigrate humanity and undermine ethics. Am I more important and worthwhile than my granddaughter? Or how about the elderly? Putting them to death then becomes a real option.
Death Penalty: Justice is such an important human ingredient that I support the death penalty, as long as it's applied justly.
Mann: Why not?
ReplyDeleteMy goldfish might be precious to me, but I doubt you'd say it therefore is a person, would you?
Mann: Justice is such an important human ingredient that I support the death penalty, as long as it's applied justly.
ReplyDeleteYour response seems to assume that it can be applied justly Daniel, and I'm not at all sure that's the case.
Havok,
ReplyDeleteWe're not talking about your goldfish, but the precious collection of embryos in my grandmother's womb which became my father.
Mann: We're not talking about your goldfish, but the precious collection of embryos in my grandmother's womb which became my father.
ReplyDeleteMy goldfish is very precious to me. It is also sentient, something which the clump of cells which were in your grandmothers womb were not (which would seem to make my fish even more precious).
Of course, that clump of cells was also very precious (in the end) to your grandmother/grandfather, but were they precious without the sentiment of those people?
The answer to that is certainly not that simple.
If we start talking about animals with more intelligence (dogs, pigs, or, if you want, other primates) things will get even less clear cut (between "us" and "them")
Or are you arguing that the blastocyst in your grandmothers womb was precious simply due to the arrangement of it's DNA?
That's a slippery slope I don't think you want to ride on ;-)
The Bible says not to kill. It also says that only God can judge. How can you be pro-death penalty? You are not very coherent.
ReplyDeleteIf you were a true christian, you would be against death penalty.
You accept to kill adults but refuse to kill a few cells that may or may not ever be a grown up person?
This is ethically absurd.
the precious collection of embryos in my grandmother's womb which became my father.
Precious now, because of what your father accomplished (I guess) but not at that time. Unless you can see the future...
I believe once the sperm penetrates the egg and the cell starts to divide, that’s life and to destroy that life is murder no if’s, and’s or but’s about it. Once God breathes life into a cell a baby is forming and to stop the formation of that baby is murder.
ReplyDeleteSome might say that cell is not a baby yet. Maybe if they would think about the cell is forming into a baby then they would not be so keen on killing the cell because maybe they will see the cell as a life being formed. Personally I think they just block that concept out of their minds so when they abort the child they state, “it was only a mass of blood clott”, not thinking that that mass of blood was life being form. I think they keep that thought far from their mind so they can do what they do, murder children.
Only God is the one to say “I’ll keep this child here with Me in heaven” not man saying I’ll take this child out the world now. Where is the children’s rights?
Florence
Florence: I believe once the sperm penetrates the egg and the cell starts to divide, that’s life and to destroy that life is murder no if’s, and’s or but’s about it.
ReplyDeleteAre you a vegetarian? Do you use any animal products? By your own definition you're taking advantage of murder.
Heck, if we're simply talking about taking life (as you seem to be), then you'd best only eat fruit, and avoid vegetables like carrots, where the plant (read: life) is killed/destroyed for your food.
Florence: Once God breathes life into a cell a baby is forming and to stop the formation of that baby is murder.
What do you mean "God breathes life"? Vitalism is dead - there is no evidence for some mystical "life force/energy", whether God breathed or otherwise.
Florence: Some might say that cell is not a baby yet. Maybe if they would think about the cell is forming into a baby then they would not be so keen on killing the cell because maybe they will see the cell as a life being formed.
Florence: Personally I think they just block that concept out of their minds
And your belief in this matter would be wrong.
Florence: Only God is the one to say “I’ll keep this child here with Me in heaven” not man saying I’ll take this child out the world now.
Why are there different rules for God than for us, Florence? it seems you're endorsing some relative morality here akin to "might makes right". Is that what you meant to say?
Florence: Where is the children’s rights?
Children have rights, as immature people. You've not made a case for a blastocyst being a person in any sense, so I'm not sure how you think these things have rights.
Havoc,
ReplyDeleteShould human life not be valued far above all others? Should not it be protected by law in a way that animals aren't? What type of legal system would you propose?
DanielM, I'm wondering why YOU think that human life should be valued "above all others". What justification do you have?
ReplyDeleteYou (and Florence) seem to separate humans from animals in some quantitative fashion. My own "system" would separate peoples in a qualitative fashion (for example, my system, but not yours would seem to support the Great Ape Project)
Oh, and Daniel, by justification, I'd like something which might, just possibly, be supported by the evidence. So talk of "souls" and "God breathed" and "life essence" and the like simply wont do ;-)
ReplyDeleteHavoc,
ReplyDeleteYou want me to defend the notion that humans a qualitatively of greater value than animals, but then you write, “Oh, and Daniel, by justification, I'd like something which might, just possibly, be supported by the evidence. So talk of "souls" and "God breathed" and "life essence" and the like simply won’t do.”
You really have me laughing! You know as well as I do that science and empirical evidence can only establish “what is” and not value (“what ought to be”). On the other hand, the Bible communicates values and truths – we are created in the image of God!!! However, God has also programmed this truth into our hearts. Therefore, we intuitively experience the fact that humans are precious and have inestimable value and unalienable rights as our USA “Bill of Rights” proclaims.
Would you place eating a chicken on the same par as killing or kidnapping a human? Why not?
Daniel, I hope you're not appealing to non-existent things to establish your "values" are you?
ReplyDeleteIt sure seems that way to me, since these claims seem to imply special creation (unsupported by evidence) and some God given moral sense (unsupported by evidence).
While empirical investigation may not be able to cross the "is-ought" divide, there seems no point in valuing things which don't exist.
Chickens have less in the way of sentience/conscious capability. Would we not base our system of values on what exists such as this rather than what does not?
Havoc,
ReplyDeleteYou're fleeing to a purely faith position that God doesn't exist. While you have no support for such a faith, I've already given you many reasons to support belief in Christ.
Not at all Daniel, I'm trying to base my values on reality.
ReplyDeleteThe reasons you've given to support your belief in Jesus have been found wanting - it seems to have been an emotional choice which you then tried to buttress with rational evidence.
As far as your own claims to value, I could say "Chickens are more valulable than humans because they're Grue!" and enjoy the same evidential support as your claims of being made in the image of God.
Once again you're making claims without justification, Daniel :-)
Abortion is the expulsion of a fetus naturally or especially by medical inducing from the womb before it is ready to survive independently-especially in the first 28 weeks of a human pregnancy.
ReplyDeleteFetus - an unborn offspring of a mammal especially a human after 8 weeks of conception
Pregnancy - condition of being pregnant-having a child or young developing in the uterus (womb)
womb-organ of conception and gestation in a woman (female mammal)
Therefore an abortion is a shortening of a LIFE of a child. Many consider it a form of invasion and aborting (stopping). Not necessarily for merely the woman, but more so the child, the woman has a choice but not the fetus (which is the beginning of LIFE (new). Unless something such as a miscarriage causing the abortion many use abortion as a form of settling disagreements/discord so more are a matter of convenience to get on with life. Unfortunately many believe abortions a lasting impression, severe depression (etc) or perhaps other physical and psychological problems.
Life comes from God, to willfully take it upon one-self to disturb; destroy its course should cause us great concern-a concerted effort to disrupt God's plans. God created but man destroyed
James W.
JamesW: Unless something such as a miscarriage causing the abortion
ReplyDeleteWouldn't Yahweh be responsible for those, James?
JamesW: Unfortunately many believe abortions a lasting impression, severe depression (etc) or perhaps other physical and psychological problems.
Doesn't that imply that we need better counselling and support, rather than what seems to be the all too common Christian response - condemnation?
JamesW: Life comes from God, to willfully take it upon one-self to disturb;
Does that include all Life, James, or just that of homo sapiens sapiens? Why aren't you a vegetarian, or a fruititarian? All life comes from God, after all :-)
JamesW: destroy its course should cause us great concern-a concerted effort to disrupt God's plans. God created but man destroyed
How is it remotely possible for being limited as we are to do anything to the plans of a (purported) omnipotent omniscient being?
Even if omniscience and omnipotence weren't seemingly incoherent attributes, you'd still be left with everything being a part of your deities plan (every murder, every abortion, etc).
Good thing your deity is a fiction, no? :-)