Sunday, August 7, 2011

Guilt: Another Proof for God




Many atheists have asked me, “What evidence do you have that there is a God?” I respond, “The entire world points to God. All creation bears His imprint, like a Van Gogh painting unmistakably bears the imprint of Van Gogh and no one else!

To demonstrate this point, let me just look at our feelings, one in particular – guilt. Now, let’s ask the question, “Which makes more sense”:

1. Guilt is merely the product of bio-chemistry, the product of evolution. We evolved this feeling to socially connect us, something that would impart a survival edge.

2. While guilt does have a bio-chemical component, it also represents the workmanship of the Creator who, through it, instructs us that His absolute moral truth has been violated.

What then happens when an atheist feels guilty? He can regard this feeling as a useless evolutionary contrivance that has outgrown its usefulness, like the belief in God, and disregard it, even to his own discomfort and detriment. However, there is another choice. He can obey it for pragmatic reasons. He can apologize for his “guilt,” recognizing that this both resolves the uncomfortable guilt feelings and also has a salutary effect upon his relationships.

However, this will cause dissonance. If guilt lacks any objective reality – there is no right-wrong or good-bad, these being no more than social conventions or bio-chemical reactions – for what then need he apologize? Yes, it works, but it only works if both parties maintain the illusion that an objective law has been violated. How will the atheist respond if the wronged party says, “You’re a hypocrite! You are apologizing and you don’t even believe that you’ve done something wrong. You’re merely apologizing to manipulate me!”

The same thing can be said about any altruistic act. The wife can always ask, “Why did you buy me flowers? Is it because it makes you feel good about yourself or do you think that your flowers have purchased a favorable response from me?” If an altruistic act lacks an adequate cognitive foundation, then it cannot be altruistic, but rather self-centered.

When a paradigm leads to inevitably incoherent results, we generally seek a new paradigm, one that will resolve the contradictions. Let me suggest that you try on a new paradigm for size, one that explains the facts.


At this point, you might answer, “Well, I never said that there weren’t problems with living out atheism, but that doesn’t mean that it wrong!” I think that you are overlooking an important issue. If the way you live your life contradicts your stated position, then your life contradicts and invalidates your position. This is especially the case if atheistic morality is based upon what works (pragmatism), and life clearly shows that it doesn’t work.

There is also another perspective to consider. There seems to be such a wonderful correspondence between feeling-action-moral resolution-feeling that bears the imprint of intelligent design. When I feel guilt, it seems to be more than an un-designed chemical reaction. I feel that I’ve committed an objective wrong, and the guilt doesn’t dissipate until I deal with it in a moral way. I’ve got to confess my sins and make restitution for them. Interestingly, if I just apologize to get my wife off my back, it doesn’t work. The entire process has to be bathed in truth and the recognition that a wrong has been done that has to be addressed in a truthful way. Furthermore, it is not enough to buy my wife flowers if I’ve wronged her. I have to humble myself and confess my wrongdoing. It is amazing the restoration that true confession can bring!

The same truths also pertain to my relationship with God. I can say “forgive me” for hours, but I won’t feel any relief until I confess the very thing for which I am guilty. Clearly, confession must be based upon moral truth and not chemistry.

This is a paradigm that not only works for me, but one that also corresponds to reality and provides the ultimate roadmap for restoration.

28 comments:

  1. Mann: If guilt lacks any objective reality
    Guilt is an objective fact - people feel guilt, end of story.

    Mann: – there is no right-wrong or good-bad, these being no more than social conventions or bio-chemical reactions
    In the absence of a God, this is not the only alternative. There are a number of metaethical positions which do not rely upon there being a God.
    There's also the problem with positing a meta-ethics which relies upon God. The Euthyphro dilemma is still a problem, despite millenia of believers attempting to overcome it. Euthyphro is not the only problem either.

    Mann: – for what then need he apologize?
    There could be any number of reasons, Daniel.

    Mann: Yes, it works, but it only works if both parties maintain the illusion that an objective law has been violated.
    Not at all, Daniel.
    You really ought to look into alternative ethical theories. Not only are there non-theistic realist ethical theories, but those which lack a categorical imperative can still have objective reasons for behaving in an ethical fashion.

    Mann: How will the atheist respond if the wronged party says, “You’re a hypocrite! You are apologizing and you don’t even believe that you’ve done something wrong. You’re merely apologizing to manipulate me!”
    I would personally respond in saying that the accusing party doesn't understand ethical theories.

    Mann: If an altruistic act lacks an adequate cognitive foundation, then it cannot be altruistic, but rather self-centered.
    It's not an either/or Daniel. The theistic ethicist can be accused of a similar problem - if you do something "altruistic" because God commands you to do so, then that isn't altruistic.

    Mann: When I feel guilt, it seems to be more than an un-designed chemical reaction. I feel that I’ve committed an objective wrong, and the guilt doesn’t dissipate until I deal with it in a moral way. I’ve got to confess my sins and make restitution for them.
    An argument drawing analogies to optical illusions undermines this claim rather handily.

    Mann: Interestingly, if I just apologize to get my wife off my back, it doesn’t work. The entire process has to be bathed in truth and the recognition that a wrong has been done that has to be addressed in a truthful way.
    Looking into the evolutionary origins of our emotions would help clear this issue up, Daniel. For example, a being who felt truly sorry is likely to be a "better person" in the long term. being social animals, a group of consisting mostly of these people, and not those who are being deceptive, is going to be more successful. This translates to reproductive success for the group for dealing with events and feelings in an honest manner.

    Mann: Clearly, confession must be based upon moral truth and not chemistry.
    You've not demonstrated this at all, Daniel.
    There is still no reason why our feelings and subjective experiences cannot be chemical in nature, especially as our minds are most likely the result of our brains.

    Mann: This is a paradigm that not only works for me, but one that also corresponds to reality and provides the ultimate roadmap for restoration.
    Saying so doesn't make it so, Daniel.

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  2. Common Sense Atheism:

    "Many people live without a moral code.

    Some do not think that morality exists. Others have chosen a life of sensual beauty instead of morality: aesthetics over ethics. Still others despise morality, seeing it as an impediment to their own domination of others.

    I am in a rather odd position. I think that moral imperatives are real and knowable, but as it happens I know almost none of them. So, I don’t know how to live a moral life. I am morally bound but morally blind. I’m driving my life forward at 100mph but I don’t know which direction to turn it.

    Let me explain.

    I spend most my time on moral theory. Why? Because if I have the wrong theory, then all of my conclusions in applied ethics are unfounded. So I need to make sure I have the right theory before I can answer questions in applied ethics.

    I think I may have found the right theory: desire utilitarianism. Unfortunately, this theory does not let me answer moral questions by closing my eyes and asking my “conscience.” Nor does it have any easy answers to any moral questions.

    Instead, desire utilitarianism says that moral imperatives can only be known by way of calculations involving billions of (mostly) unknown variables: desires, strengths of desires, relations between desires and states of affairs, and relations between desires and other desires.

    Oofta. Can’t I have a moral theory that is a bit more… practical?

    Unfortunately, all other moral theories have turned out to be false.

    Darn.

    So, I’m still researching moral theory, and it may be years or decades before I can turn my eye to questions of applied ethics.

    Which means I’ll be living without a moral code for a long time.

    Which wouldn’t be a big deal, except that I want to be moral very badly. That’s why I spend so much time studying ethics in the first place!

    So I’m stuck. I want to be moral, but I’m not sure what is moral, if I’m living morally right now, or when I’ll get around to figuring out what is moral! I don’t know if I’m a good person.

    Now, I don’t mean to overstate this. I’ve got some good guesses about what is moral and not moral, based on the theory of morality that seems most true to me. But they’re really just guesses.

    But I can’t just stop living. I have to make decisions every day. Thousands of them. I can’t calculate the morality of each one – or really, hardly any of them. Not yet, anyway. So what do I do?"

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  3. Havok,

    Please don’t merely say that I’m wrong because I don’t know moral theory. That type of statement is simply mud-slinging. If you have something to say, then DEMONSTRATE how what I am saying is either wrong or limited. If you think that we really have a problem because of Euthyphro’s Dilemma, then lay it out!

    // The theistic ethicist can be accused of a similar problem - if you do something "altruistic" because God commands you to do so, then that isn't altruistic.//

    Since we Christians believe in an objective, absolute right and wrong, when we do the right, we are following truth. This is CONSEQUENTLY satisfying.

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  4. Truth,

    Your response seems to be an embodiment of Romans 7??

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  5. Mann: Please don’t merely say that I’m wrong because I don’t know moral theory. That type of statement is simply mud-slinging. If you have something to say, then DEMONSTRATE how what I am saying is either wrong or limited. If you think that we really have a problem because of Euthyphro’s Dilemma, then lay it out!
    Daniel, we've been here before. I've sketched argument and you've ignored them. I've given you pointers to further information, and you've ignored it. We've gone through arguments step by step, and you've simply given up.

    As that is the case, and since you don't actually offer an argument for your position - you simply assert it as a given - then I see little to no reason to put further effort into the discussion.

    Perhaps if you could go into detail as to why the various alternative metaethical positions to your own fail, then perhaps we could move the discussion forward a little.

    Mann: Since we Christians believe in an objective, absolute right and wrong, when we do the right, we are following truth. This is CONSEQUENTLY satisfying.
    You didn't seem to respond to my point.
    You said that in the absence of God, being altruistic becomes selfish. But even were God to exist, your reason for being altruistic becomes simply because you want to do God's will - it becomes a selfish reason as well.

    Also theistic ethics of the sort you subscribe to tends to be of the "Good is what God wills" variety, where if God says being altrustic is good, then we should be altruistic.
    But why should I care what God says?
    If God has good reasons to promote altruism, then those would be reasons to be altruistic, and we do not need God.
    If there is no reason for God's promotion of altruism, then good is simply arbitrary.
    This is a short sketch of the Euthyphro problem.

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  6. Havok,

    This is merely mud-slinging.

    //Daniel, we've been here before. I've sketched argument and you've ignored them. I've given you pointers to further information, and you've ignored it. We've gone through arguments step by step, and you've simply given up.//

    If you don't like my prior response, then go elsewhere. If instead you persist in your allegations that I've "ignored" you, then these are no more than personal attacks, which I will have to delete.

    //But even were God to exist, your reason for being altruistic becomes simply because you want to do God's will - it becomes a selfish reason as well.//

    Although I will admit that I follow God for selfish reasons, you must demonstrate that there aren't also altruistic reasons involved.

    //Also theistic ethics of the sort you subscribe to tends to be of the "Good is what God wills" variety, where if God says being altrustic is good, then we should be altruistic.//

    Once again, your reasoning is needlessly reductionistic. What makes you think that "Good is what God wills" is the ONLY basis for our ethics?

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  7. Mann: If you don't like my prior response, then go elsewhere. If instead you persist in your allegations that I've "ignored" you, then these are no more than personal attacks, which I will have to delete.
    Daniel, the fact is that you've been presented with ethical systems which are not your own, which you have yet to refute (and they remain live metaethical options within the Philosophy of ethics).
    Yet in spite of this you continue to write as if yours is the only option, has no defects, and the only alternative is some subjectivist-pragmatist strawman of your own creation.

    Mann: Although I will admit that I follow God for selfish reasons, you must demonstrate that there aren't also altruistic reasons involved.
    Haven't you just undermined your position with this statement?
    If there are altruistic reasons for being "good" then they do not revolve around God, therefore if such reasons exist, God is not required to support them.

    Mann: Once again, your reasoning is needlessly reductionistic. What makes you think that "Good is what God wills" is the ONLY basis for our ethics?
    This tends to be what positions like your own end up as. Whether it's what God wills, or what is in line with Gods nature, or something similar. They end up amounting to much the same, and have the same or similar arguments against them.
    As for what makes me think that "Good is what God wills" is the only basis for ethics - I don't. I think there are other possible systems of ethics.

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  8. Havok,

    //Haven't you just undermined your position with this statement? If there are altruistic reasons for being "good" then they do not revolve around God, therefore if such reasons exist, God is not required to support them.//

    I never suggested that any reason for altruism lies outside of God. One aspect of serving God is serving the truth. As a consequence of serving the truth, there is great satisfaction.

    //Mann: Once again, your reasoning is needlessly reductionistic. What makes you think that "Good is what God wills" is the ONLY basis for our ethics?

    This tends to be what positions like your own end up as. Whether it's what God wills, or what is in line with Gods nature, or something similar. They end up amounting to much the same, and have the same or similar arguments against them.//

    You are merely making an unsupported dogmatic statement. Again, where is your evidence that our morality is simply a matter of "Good is what God wills?"

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  9. Mann: I never suggested that any reason for altruism lies outside of God.
    You did appear to.
    Mann: One aspect of serving God is serving the truth.
    Yet you're unable to actually face the truth when it conflicts with your prior ideological commitments. There seems to be some hypocrisy going on.

    Mann: As a consequence of serving the truth, there is great satisfaction.
    The personal satisfaction here would undermine your claims to altruism - it would be your selfish reason for doing so.

    Mann: You are merely making an unsupported dogmatic statement. Again, where is your evidence that our morality is simply a matter of "Good is what God wills?"
    If on your account morality is not necessarily dependant upon some aspect of God (his nature, will, commands, whatever), then your complaints against non-theistic morality seem to founder. If any aspect of morality can be independent of God, then it seems that morality itself can be independent of God, and God becomes, again, superfluous to morality.

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  10. Havok,

    //The personal satisfaction here would undermine your claims to altruism - it would be your selfish reason for doing so.//

    Of course, there are great benefits in serving the Lord, but once again, you are engaging in a form of reductionism. How can you prove that this satisfaction is the only reason that I serve Him?

    //If any aspect of morality can be independent of God, then it seems that morality itself can be independent of God, and God becomes, again, superfluous to morality.//

    Of course, no good thing is independent of God, who is the Creator and Sustainer. However, morality doesn't narrow down to your pejorative statement: "Good is what God wills"! Morality is much more deeply intertwined and richer than what your statement allows.

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  11. Mann: How can you prove that this satisfaction is the only reason that I serve Him?
    I don't need to, as I thought I made clear. That you serve for satisfaction (and perhaps other reasons - to try to please God, to gain favour, to gain heaven/other rewards, etc) undermines any claims to be serving etc for altruistic reasons - your reasons include selfish reasons.

    Mann: Of course, no good thing is independent of God, who is the Creator and Sustainer.
    Of course, this statement also indicates that no evil thing is independent of God, which I think you would find disagreeable.

    Mann: However, morality doesn't narrow down to your pejorative statement: "Good is what God wills"!
    So, prey tell, what variety of theistic morality do you actually believe is true, Daniel?
    What is the standard of "good"?

    Mann: Morality is much more deeply intertwined and richer than what your statement allows.
    Is it really, or have you simply not thought through what you believe?
    For example, J.M. Adams associates "the Good" (in the Aristotelian sense) with God, and good things are those which are in accordance with God's nature. William Craig and others (J.P. Moreland included, I think) seem to endorse Adams' account of morality.
    Others associate what is good with what God wills, as I've indicated above. Still others seem to associate "the Good" with an external platonic-style ideal, imbuing certain traits (love, kindness, etc) as being "Good", and since God supposedly exmplifies these traits to the maximum, then God is the the ideal of Good (but because he exemplifies the good traits).
    Any of those ring a bell? :-)

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  12. Havok,

    //Mann: How can you prove that this satisfaction is the only reason that I serve Him?

    I don't need to, as I thought I made clear. That you serve for satisfaction (and perhaps other reasons - to try to please God, to gain favour, to gain heaven/other rewards, etc) undermines any claims to be serving etc for altruistic reasons - your reasons include selfish reasons.//

    Your argument fails to keep track of the issue. Even if you are correct that I serve God for these motivations, these are irrelevant to whether or not I also serve Him for altruistic reasons also.

    //Of course, this statement also indicates that no evil thing is independent of God, which I think you would find disagreeable.//

    Because all good comes from God - pleasure, food, beauty, life - it doesn't follow that every evil comes from God. Augustine understood evil as parasitic of the good, and consequently dependent upon it.

    Of course the good comes from God, but the good isn't merely matter of God's arbitrary will. It's also founded in His character and in ours.

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  13. Mann: Your argument fails to keep track of the issue. Even if you are correct that I serve God for these motivations, these are irrelevant to whether or not I also serve Him for altruistic reasons also.
    Daniel, to be serving truly altruistically, you would need to have no selfish reasons for doing so. You admit you do have selfish reasons for doing so, and therefore you're not serving altruistically. It's fairly simple I would have thought.

    Mann: Because all good comes from God - pleasure, food, beauty, life - it doesn't follow that every evil comes from God.
    Perhaps not, but being the creator and sustainer of all, as you believe, does seem to mean God created evil.

    Mann: Augustine understood evil as parasitic of the good, and consequently dependent upon it.
    What Augustine understood is irrelevant to the issue at hand.
    The "Problem of Evil" (in logical and evidential varieties) is relevant and has no satisfactory theistic response as far as I'm aware.

    Mann: Of course the good comes from God, but the good isn't merely matter of God's arbitrary will. It's also fo'sunded in His character and in ours.
    How do we know God's character is "Good"? Do we appeal to something other than God ("because God is loving, kind, caring, etc"), or is God's character arbitrary ("kindness is only good because God is kind"). There doesn't seem to be much in the way of a third option, though I've read a number of attempts.
    People like William Lane Craig (following R.M. Adams) try to avoid this by claiming that God nature is necessary, and God is "the Good" as conceived by Aristotle. This however fails to account for all ethical claims, as pointed out by Erik Wielenberg in his paper "In defense of non-natural non-theistic moral realism":
    "It might be thought that Adams’s theory does provide a foundation for such ethical facts; doesn’t the theory tell us, for instance, that the fact that the Good exists is grounded in the fact that God exists? The answer is no; since the Good just is God, the existence of God can hardly explain or ground the existence of the Good. In the context of Adams’s view, the claim that God serves as the foundation of the Good is no more sensible than the claim that H2O serves as the foundation of water."
    So while the claims of people like Adams attempt to ground all ethical facts in God (God's nature, the claim that God just is the Good, etc), we find that (on a theistic ethics) ethical facts which cannot be grounded in God, which undermines the claim that God is the source/grounding of "Good".

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  14. Havok,

    //Daniel, to be serving truly altruistically, you would need to have no selfish reasons for doing so. You admit you do have selfish reasons for doing so, and therefore you're not serving altruistically. It's fairly simple I would have thought.//

    Your definition of altruism virtually eliminates any possibility of being altruistic. In other words, as soon as there is some satisfaction in an altruistic deed, then it's not altruistic, even if the satisfaction is the RESULT of the deed.

    //Perhaps not, but being the creator and sustainer of all, as you believe, does seem to mean God created evil.//

    There's a big difference between allowing evil and creating it.

    //The "Problem of Evil" (in logical and evidential varieties) is relevant and has no satisfactory theistic response as far as I'm aware.//

    The origin of evil is not the same thing as the problem of evil.

    //How do we know God's character is "Good"?//

    Revelation - personal and objective.

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  15. Mann: Your definition of altruism virtually eliminates any possibility of being altruistic.
    It's not strictly my definition, rather than the standard definition, as far as I can tell (or at least 1 use of it):
    1. The belief in or practice of disinterested and selfless concern for the well-being of others.
    I don't see how a theist could be altruistic is his reason for doing so is to curry favour with God.

    Mann: In other words, as soon as there is some satisfaction in an altruistic deed, then it's not altruistic, even if the satisfaction is the RESULT of the deed.
    Hence the "disinterested" part of the above definition.
    Otherwise one could argue that the fact that you performed an otherwise altruistic act because it make you happy to do so was not entirely altruistic.

    Mann: There's a big difference between allowing evil and creating it.

    Mann: The origin of evil is not the same thing as the problem of evil.
    But if God is the creator and sustainer of ALL then God is responsible for literally everything. The problem of evil is certainly of interest here.

    Mann: Revelation - personal and objective.
    Not really. Personal revelation is notoriaously unreliable, and the revelations you rely upon for your religious beliefs paint your deity as genocidal, approving of slavery, etc. These are certainly not what I (and I hope you) think are "Good" behaviours and traits.
    Objective revelation (by which I suspect you mean external reality) shows no sign of a God generally, and certainly not a Good God (the problem of evil, specifically the evidential variety, comes to mind here).

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  16. Havok,

    //I don't see how a theist could be altruistic is his reason for doing so is to curry favour with God.//

    I don't think that you're dealing squarely with what I've been trying to communicate. Even if it is consequently satisfying to do an altruistic act for God, it doesn't prove that the initial motivation wasn't unselfish - simply a desire to please God, to do what is right.

    Besides, it not about "currying favor" with our Savior. This is because we are already convinced of His love and His favor which comes to us as a free gift of His love. He has already paid the price for us on the Cross. Now, having paid the ultimate price to purchase this precious gift, He wants to give it away.

    This is why we love Him - because He first loved us and promised to never leave us.

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  17. Mann: Even if it is consequently satisfying to do an altruistic act for God, it doesn't prove that the initial motivation wasn't unselfish - simply a desire to please God, to do what is right.
    And, to get back to my initial point, Why should I care to please God, even if he existed, instead of simply doing what is right? Positing the existence of God doesn't seem to buy you anything, and merely ends up causing trouble, as the Euthyphro dilemma makes clear - theistic morality is either independent of God or arbitrary in some fashion.

    Mann: This is because we are already convinced of His love and His favor which comes to us as a free gift of His love.
    Yet love does not require obedience (though you have stated the opposite before, regarding love for God).
    It's also not much of a free gift if I have to take some steps to receive it (whatever it may be you think is necessary and sufficient for salvation).

    Mann: This is why we love Him - because He first loved us and promised to never leave us.
    And yet simply because of inadequate evidence, or because someone is born into the wrong culture, he subjects millions of people to unending torment (according to most Christianities, including your own I believe).
    Punishment of this sort doesn't seem to be a product of love or kindness, which puts the theological conception of God at odds with Christianity as it's commonly construed.

    So it seems you're no closer to demonstrating the point of your post, nor that your ethical theory is remotely coherent.

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  18. Havoc,

    //Punishment of this sort doesn't seem to be a product of love or kindness, which puts the theological conception of God at odds with Christianity as it's commonly construed.//

    Understandably from your perspective, God isn't love. If I was standing in your shoes, I'd hate Him also! But consider this - He says that all who come to Him in truth He receives. It doesn't matter what our sins have been. He is more than willing to eradicate them. That's love. However, inviting the unrepentant into His eternal bliss would sully it for everyone. That wouldn't be love.

    Regarding "Euthyphro's Dilemma": It is only a dilemma for those who want to see it as a dilemma. Believe me - we have no problem with Euthyphro.

    Daniel

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  19. Mann: If I was standing in your shoes, I'd hate Him also!
    I don't hate your non-existent deity.

    Mann: It doesn't matter what our sins have been. He is more than willing to eradicate them. That's love.
    On Christianity, he's only willing to eradicate them if we do what he says. That is, at best, very conditional love.

    Mann: However, inviting the unrepentant into His eternal bliss would sully it for everyone. That wouldn't be love.
    Subjecting the unrepentant to eternal torture is not love. Instead, God could reason with them, showing them the errors of their ways, and making them repentant. Doing this would show greater love on the part of your deity, and would not lead to a sullying of eternal bliss, but this is not your belief, nor does it seem to be a doctrine supportable in Christianity.

    Mann: Regarding "Euthyphro's Dilemma": It is only a dilemma for those who want to see it as a dilemma. Believe me - we have no problem with Euthyphro.
    You say that, but you have no reasonable response to it. Philosophers like Wes Morriston (who is a Christian) opt for an external standard of "Good", which seems to be the only reasonable route to take.
    You seem to follow WLC and take the arbitrary horn of the dilemma, which robs the term "Good" when applied to God, of it's meaning.

    Believe me, the dilemma is something the theist needs to grapple with.

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  20. Havok,

    If you think that Euthyphro presents a dilemma, lay it out and let's have at it.

    //On Christianity, he's only willing to eradicate them if we do what he says. That is, at best, very conditional love.//

    In some ways His love is conditional. In other ways, it isn't. The Bible teaches that His grace falls upon the righteous and unrighteous alike - that He loves all His creation. Because of this -- you breathe His air, drink His water, eat His food, enjoy His beauty - you are culpable before Him. You owe Him but deny Him. How convenient! However, you are "without excuse." He has made His existence and His truths plain to you, but you suppress this knowledge (Romans 1:18-20).

    Daniel

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  21. Mann: If you think that Euthyphro presents a dilemma, lay it out and let's have at it.
    Either Good is independent of God's will/nature, in which case we can appeal to this independent standard regarding morality, and God is not necessary, or "Good" is solely according to God's nature, and is dangerously arbitrary - whatever God wills, such as child sacrifice, murder, genocide, slavery etc, would be good.
    While it seems one must choose one of the horns, the independent standard seems the rational alternative.

    We have discussed this before, by the way.

    Mann: In some ways His love is conditional. In other ways, it isn't.
    Great, we agree. So you can stop claiming that your God, if he existed, would give grace unconditionally, and for free. That salvation is freely given, and all other similar claims.

    Mann: The Bible teaches that His grace falls upon the righteous and unrighteous alike - that He loves all His creation.
    Eternal torment doesn't sound like an act of love. Your claim that his love falls on all doesn't follow from your previous claims.


    Mann: Because of this -- you breathe His air, drink His water, eat His food, enjoy His beauty - you are culpable before Him. You owe Him but deny Him. How convenient!
    Ridiculous, Daniel. I don't "deny" your God. I simply accept that there is no reasonable evidence for it's existence.

    Mann: However, you are "without excuse." He has made His existence and His truths plain to you, but you suppress this knowledge (Romans 1:18-20).
    Again, I don't care what some guy thought 2,000 years ago. You consistently fail to justify this sort of claim, as does every other Christian I'm aware of. You claim various things ("fine tuning", "intelligent design", "objective morality", "historical evidnce" etc) point to the existence of your specific conception of a god, but whenever we actually discuss these things, you are unable to follow through and actually justify your claim. You end up simply letting the discussion drop, and move on to something else.

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  23. Havok,

    You deny the many evidences for God. You prefer to believe many things that we theists regard as utterly absurd:

    1. Life just happened.
    2. The Cell just happened.
    3. We don't have freewill.
    4. The physical laws just strung unchangingly out of an explosion.
    5. The fine-tuning of the universe is the result of the production of innumerable chance universes.
    6. Consciousness is just the product of chemicals.
    7. Moral absolutes don't exist. So nothing is inherently wrong.

    What can I say to someone who says that black is white and white is black? or someone who refuses to acknowledge that sugar is sweet and a sunset is beautiful. Jesus tells us to wipe the dust off our feet as a sign against them.

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  24. And around we go. You bring these up, I provide possible explanations, and you ignore them. You refuse to try to understand other possibilities than your completely warrantless and unjustified "God did it" claim, which doesn't rise to the level of an explanation, and which you flatly refuse to provide further detail for.

    This is a perfect example of you ignoring or forgetting previous discussions.

    Mann: Jesus tells us to wipe the dust off our feet as a sign against them.
    Which is rather convenient for you. Someone simply wants you to justify your own claims, and instead of doing so, you insist they're somehow being unreasonable (without justifying that claim either), and move on.

    All contrary arguments go down the memory hole with you :-)

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  25. Mann: 1. Life just happened.
    While there is no single, end to end solution, there are viable pathways from organic chemistry to biological replication.

    Mann: 2. The Cell just happened.
    As with the previous, there are viable pathways to the generation of cells. Lipid vesicles spontaneously form, for instance.

    Mann: 3. We don't have freewill.
    You're conception of free will seems incoherent, and you've not shown that a viable conception of free will (or at least, an explanation of what we feel we have) is incompatible with materialism.
    You also never demonstrated evidence FOR your conception of free will, nor answered a number of outstanding questions.

    Mann: 4. The physical laws just strung unchangingly out of an explosion.
    I offered an explanation of this, courtesy of Victor Stenger, which explains the laws of physics as due to (spontaneous) symmetry breaking.
    There are other avenues under investigation.

    Mann: 5. The fine-tuning of the universe is the result of the production of innumerable chance universes.
    While multi-verses seem to drop out of rather reasonable and modest extrapolation of existing physics, we simply don't know as yet. We also don't know if the laws of physics CAN be different. The claim that the laws are "fine tuned" in some fashion has been found rather wanting (see Vic Stenger's new book on the topic, for example).

    Mann: 6. Consciousness is just the product of chemicals.
    In the absence of evidence to the contrary, and given that neuroscience strongly points to this being the case, this is a reasonable, tentative position to take.

    Mann: 7. Moral absolutes don't exist. So nothing is inherently wrong.
    And here we have rather a large amount of disagreement. Personally I'm something of a relatavist, though I think different moral claims can be compared (I know you read Massimo P's blog - he recently did a post on what he called "Moral Rationalism" which is close to my position).
    However, there are a number of non-theistic theories of moral realism available.

    In short, while you may find these positions "utterly absurd", such a claim doesn't mean that they are actually absurd (you'd need to argue this further), nor are they mistaken (again, you'd need to argue this).

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  26. On the other side of the coin, for your own position when you've presented it in past discussions, you've given no detailed explanation deriving your position from "first principles" as it were (the basic attributes of God, for example). Your position seems to be detail free and utterly devoid of empirical content. Therefore, your own position is less supported than those you find utterly absurd. I think perhaps you have a serious problem with your position, Daniel, as I have mentioned a number of times in the past.

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  27. Havok,

    //Your position seems to be detail free and utterly devoid of empirical content.//

    While I disagree with your charge, there is an element of truth to it. As a theist, I believe that the buck stops at God, beyond which there is no further explanation, at least for now.

    However, the alternative is even more damning - infinite regress. By the very nature of your system, any explanation will requires an explanation of the explanation, ad infinitum. If you are trapped in an infinite regress, you ultimately can give NO explanation for anything. Your last explanation is always gong to be left dangling in the air, requiring a further explanation.

    It's like telling little Johnny that he needs to study so that he can get a good job when he graduates. He'll respond, "Why do I need a good job?"

    "Well, you want to be able to support a family, don't you?"
    "Why?"

    This can go on endlessly unless something that is authoritative in itself is cited.

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