We have a futon couch. With just a minor adjustment, it
becomes a bed. With just a little “adjustment,” we can do the same thing with
Biblical interpretation and derive almost anything we want.
We visited a Presbyterian church in downtown Manhattan this Sunday.
The pastor taught about eunuchs, citing Deuteronomy 23:
·
No one who has been emasculated by crushing or
cutting may enter the assembly of the Lord. No one born of a forbidden marriage
nor any of his descendants may enter the assembly of the Lord, even down to the
tenth generation. No Ammonite or Moabite or any of his descendants may enter
the assembly of the Lord…(Deut. 23:1-3)
He then cited Isaiah – writing 700 years later – to show the
egalitarian “evolution” of the Israelite religion:
·
Let no foreigner who has bound himself to the
Lord say, "The Lord will surely exclude me from his people." And let
not any eunuch complain, "I am only a dry tree." For this is what the
Lord says: "To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, who choose what pleases me
and hold fast to my covenant-- to them I will give within my temple and its
walls a memorial…” (Isaiah 56:3-5)
For this pastor, Isaiah’s understanding had evolved far
beyond Moses’. I guess Moses must have misheard the Lord at Sinai, and the Lord,
in disgust, allowed Moses to promote his errant message.
The pastor then brought his portrait of Biblical evolution
into the modern times of the Gospel, where we find Philip baptizing the
Ethiopian eunuch into the body of Christ. The pastor concluded that the
religion of the Hebrews had finally achieved inclusiveness.
Predictably, he applied this lesson of inclusiveness to
those living out the homosexual life, gaily proclaiming that he and those of
his understanding had achieved the radical inclusiveness envisioned by Jesus. However,
he warned that there are still “Pharisees” – the Evangelicals - within the
church. So much for inclusiveness! I guess he didn’t see his inconsistency.
Hadn’t he converted a bed into something it wasn’t – a reclining
chair? Was Moses really so adverse to inclusivism? It seems not! Although the
Passover could not be celebrated by non-Israelites, God explained upon His
great deliverance from Egypt
that this could be remedied:
·
The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, "These
are the regulations for the Passover: ‘No foreigner is to eat of it. Any slave
you have bought may eat of it after you have circumcised him, but a temporary
resident and a hired worker [who remain uncircumcised] may not eat of it.’” (Exodus
12:43-45)
Circumcision was the entry ticket, as it had been for all
Israelites! This represented radical inclusiveness – even for the despised
slave. There were no literacy, income or racial requirements. However, the
included had to abide by the same standards as the native-born Israelites. God
affirmed that there wouldn’t be any distinctions:
·
“The same law applies to the native-born and to
the alien living among you." (Exodus 12:49).
How then would we reconcile this with the restrictions of
Deuteronomy 23? Clearly, the eunuch and the various foreigners hadn’t become
circumcised! Had they, the doors would have swung open.
In light of this understanding, Isaiah would gladly shake
hands with Moses. In fact, he and all the prophets never suggested that they had any differences with the Mosaic Law.
However, with just a twist here and an adjustment there, the Bible can be made
to say almost anything.
However, I was glad to hear the pastor’s preamble to the
Lord’s Supper. He explained that it was open to any “who sincerely turned their
back on their sins.” Clearly, being a eunuch wasn’t a matter of sin. It isn’t
an action but a physical condition. However, the homosexual lifestyle does
represent both choice and action. Many have proved this by actually turning
their back on this self-destructive lifestyle.
I was wondering how the pastor had convinced himself that
homosexual behavior wasn’t a sin that required repentance. I had supposed that
he regarded pedophilia, adultery and extra-marital sexual behavior as sin. Why
then not homosexual behavior?
I went to the coffee hour hoping to pigeon-hole the pastor.
However, neither he nor his associate pastors came – not exactly the ideal modeling
of inclusiveness. However, I did corner a defenseless woman who was overseeing
a sign-up table. I shared with her my perplexity, and asked her how the pastor
could be sure that homosexuality wasn’t a sin in view of the many verses
forbidding it. She couldn’t answer, but expressed her hope that the pastor
would soon come for his coffee. Evidently, he had found coffee elsewhere.



Deut 23:1-3 is definitive in it's exclusion, which would seem to be an additional condition to those given in Exodus - to keep the passover of Yahweh you need to be circumcised, but those who are eunuchs, or bastards or have Ammonite or Moabite ancestry will never be accepted.
ReplyDeleteAccording to you, Deut was written after Exodus, by Moses (which is not the position the evidence indicates, but we'll leave that for now), meaning that Deut is surely a stricture to be applied to the earlier ruling rather than the other way around as you would have us believe.
This, then, indicates that though foreigners could become as "native born" Israelites, those who failed to meet the standard could never become as such - they would be denied forever (or, to the 10th generation.
Mann: I shared with her my perplexity, and asked her how the pastor could be sure that homosexuality wasn’t a sin in view of the many verses forbidding it.
I imagine this is done in the same way that you have convinced yourself that the bible does not advocate slavery, or that the earth is round - by reinterpreting the words of the bible in light of the concerns of reality rather than in light of what the original author probably meant :-)
You retort: “Deut 23:1-3 is definitive in it's exclusion.” However, you barely engage my reasoning – that this exclusion only remained as long as the excluded ones refused circumcision.
DeleteAlthough you mention that it might have been the case that the eunuch could not be circumcised, this never stopped anyone from becoming an Israelite. After all, women weren’t circumcised either.
In fact, we have no indication that anyone who ever sincerely wanted to become an Israelite was ever rejected. You are certainly welcome to dispute this, but if you fail to, this constitutes an overwhelming argument in favor of Biblical inclusiveness.
Interestingly, this same offer is carried over into the NT – all who want our God can have Him:
• John 6:37: “Whoever comes to me I will never drive away.”
• Romans 10:13: "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
• John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
*sigh*
DeleteDaniel, please read for comprehension rather than "to win".
According to you Deut was written AFTER Exodus.
Therefore the rules of Deut are ADDITIONS to the rules of Exodus.
Therefore, instead of circumcision overriding the fact that someone is a Eunuch, the fact that someone is a Eunuch overrides circumcision.
Mann: In fact, we have no indication that anyone who ever sincerely wanted to become an Israelite was ever rejected.
In fact we have exactly this sort of thinfg in the passage of Deut you cite.
While I’m certainly willing to acknowledge “additions,” you’re going to have to work a little harder to prove that Deuteronomy “Overrides” or “Disqualifies” anything the Exodus says. In fact, in the entirely Book of Deuteronomy, Moses is harkening back to the prior 39 years to draw upon its lessons.
ReplyDeleteOk, we have Exodus which states that those who sojourn with the Israelites and who circumcise themselves and their male slaves and children, can partake of the Passover.
ReplyDeleteThen we have the Deutoronomic passage, which you believe Moses wrote AFTER the Exodus passage. This passage places restrictions joining the Israelites.
Now, simply due to the order in which these are presented, and assuming your (evidentially unsupportable) claim that Moses wrote both, we see that Deut restricts the rule which Exodus laid out, and not the other way around as you're claiming.
Basically, we have 2 rules. If we lay them out we have:
- Anyone who circumcises can join our club
- Eunuchs, Moabites, etc are not welcome.
To reverse them is to claim that the restriction on Eunuchs and Moabites is completely superfluous, since if all anyone had to do was to be circumcised, then the rules against the Eunuchs, moabites etc has no purpose.
Havok,
ReplyDeleteYou wrote:
“Basically, we have 2 rules. If we lay them out we have:
- Anyone who circumcises can join our club
- Eunuchs, Moabites, etc are not welcome.”
I can understand your confusion. However, you illegitimately conflate becoming an Israelite (being circumcised) and entering the Temple. These were two different things. If fact, in the Temple there was a special portico for the Gentiles from which Deuteronomy 23 excluded certain Gentiles. However, once they became Israelites, the prohibition was removed.
Deut 23 says that the various groups shall not enter into "qahal" of Yahweh. The Hebrew term is translated as congregation, or assembly or similar - it does not mean temple.
DeleteAlso, since this was written prior to the construction of the temple, it can't be taken as meaning that.
The most you could get would be that those groups cannot participate in worship services, but I believe that would be stretching the meaning too far.
You also have in no way established that these groups could become Isralites. Since Deut 32 is not about temple worship, contrary to what you just claimed, my point about it being a restriction on being able to join the "Israelite" club appears to stand.
You’re right – this is about “Qahal” and not “Temple.” My mistake. However, the principle remains the same. While the Edomite or the Egyptian could partake along with the Israelites (Deut. 23:7) in most of the Israelite holidays, the Moabite could not. Neither group, however, could partake in the Passover without first becoming circumcised to become an Israelite.
DeleteAll of Israel had to be circumcised. This included even the Egyptians who left Egypt along with the Israelites. None were denied of the “mixed multitude” who had accompanied Israel out of Egypt.
CONCLUSION: Any who wanted to become an Israelite through circumcision could!!!
Daniel, I'm going to have to continue to disagree with you.
DeleteThe "assembly of the lord" here does not merely refer to the Israelites in worship. Opinions seem to vary between it refering to the Israelites, or to holding (civil) office. The argument that it only refers to holding office seems weak to me (apparently reliant upon Deut 31:28 for 'qahal' being used in this manner).
Now, this injunction may not have extended to members of these groups simply living in the land, but it certainly impacts their being able to partake in the society of Israel and, as seems likely, to become full converts themselves.
Note that the injunction is to be for ever ("even to their tenth generation" meaning forever). This really doesn't appear to reinforce your notion of "inclusiveness" Daniel :-)
Also, you've not mentioned the fact that Christians have "revised" their interpretation of various parts of the bible (slavery, women treated as property, flat earth, young earth, special creation, and on and on), and so doing this again regarding homosexuality should not really be cause for too much consternation :-)
“Note that the injunction is to be for ever ("even to their tenth generation" meaning forever). This really doesn't appear to reinforce your notion of "inclusiveness" Daniel :-)”
DeleteWhat you have stated fails to address the issue at hand – Whether or not these excluded people could become circumcised as Israelites to become full citizens of Israel.
So far you haven’t given me one example where a non-Israelite was or would be forbidden circumcision. Without one such example, this case is closed. Conclusion: Anyone could become an Israelite, as God had stated:
• Exodus 12:49 The same law applies to the native-born and to the alien living among you."