My Response to a Christian Evolutionist (CE):
I’ll respond to one of your points that I think is central to your position and that of the CEs: “The science of the Bible is obviously the ‘science’ of the ancient near east, and is antiquated and therefore wrong. Instead, the Bible is about salvation and a relationship with Christ.”
With this bold statement, you dismiss whatever the Bible has to say about the physical world, including history, geography, psychology and biology. Why then not also dismiss what the Bible has to say about our feelings, thought life and spiritual growth? These are not independent of our biology, and according to you, the biology of the Bible is clearly a reflection of ancient “science.” I don’t see how you can trust in the Bible’s spiritual message after denying its message about our physical world.
Your distinction between the Bible’s teachings about the physical world and the spiritual cannot hold up under scrutiny. The Bible states that Lazarus rose from the dead, but all miracles impinge on the physical world. Will you then rule them out and declare the Bible errant in its account of miracles? Will you also deny the resurrection of Jesus? According to your distinctions, you must. However, Biblically, there can be no hard distinction between physical and spiritual truth. They cling together as sodium does to chloride to produce salt.
Will you also deny prophecy? This too deals with phenomena within the physical world. However, Jesus taught that He performed both miracles and prophecies to promote faith(John 14:28-29). If you deny the former, the latter (faith) is left without a solid foundation. If you dismiss the Biblical affirmation that God has historically fulfilled prophecy, then you deprive the church of important reasons to believe in the Christian faith.
Instead, I’d like to cite Biblical evidence that the Bible wasn’t corrupted by ancient “science” but instead foresaw the findings of modern science:
1. TIME IS NOT ETERNAL AS BIG BANG COSMOLOGY ASSERTS: 2 Tim. 1:9 who has saved us and called us to a holy life--not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,
2. THE UNIVERSE HAD A BEGINNING: Genesis 1:1 “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” (Contra the steady-state theory that had ruled science).
3. THE BUILDING BLOCKS OF THE PHYSICAL WORD AREN’T VISIBLE: Hebrews 11:3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.
4. LAWS: Jeremiah 33:25 This is what the LORD says: 'If I have not established my covenant with day and night and the fixed laws of heaven and earth, (Also Job 38:33)
5. WATER CYCLE: Job 36:27 "He draws up the drops of water, which distill as rain to the streams.” (Also Amos 9:6)
6. DINOSAURS?? Psalm 74:14 It was you who crushed the heads of Leviathan and gave him as food to the creatures of the desert. (Isa 27:1; 51:9; Jer. 51:34; Eze 29:3)
7. INNUMERABLE STARS: Jeremiah 33:22 I will make the descendants of David my servant and the Levites who minister before me as countless as the stars of the sky and as measureless as the sand on the seashore.' "
8. COSMIC EXPANSION, ROUND EARTH: Isaiah 40:22 He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in. (Scripture claims that the universe was created, rather than having existed eternally, as the atheist had supposed.) (42:5)
9. STARS AS GUIDES TO SEASONS AND GEOGRAPHIC POSITIONS: Genesis 1:14 lights in the expanse of the sky… [would] serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years.”
10. COUNTLESS STARS: Jeremiah 33:22 states, “I will make the descendants of David my servant and the Levites who minister before me as countless as the stars of the sky and as measureless as the sand on the seashore. " (Also Job 11:7-8; 22:12)
11. THE EARTH DOES NOT SIT ON A PEDESTAL AS ANCIENT COSMOLOGY HAS IT: Job 26:7 He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing.
12. STRESS NEGATIVELY IMPACTS HEALTH: Proverbs 17:22 A cheerful heart is good medicine, but a crushed spirit dries up the bones.
13. UNHEALTHY QUALITY OF EXCREMENT: Deut. 23:12-13 Designate a place outside the camp where you can go to relieve yourself. 13As part of your equipment have something to dig with, and when you relieve yourself, dig a hole and cover up your excrement.
14. FOSSIL FINDS IN THE MOUNTAINS: Psalm 104:6 …the waters stood above the mountains.
1. "Before the beginning of time" seems rather more like a figure of speech (for a long time ago) rather than a statement regarding the universe.
ReplyDelete2. Seems Genesis 1 can be interpreted asassuming the preexistence of matter, such as seems common in other ANE myths.
3. Seems more in line with the belief in preexistent "formless matter" rather than a statement regarding quarks and gluons.
6. Isn't leviathan thought to be an alligator? I think Behemoth is thought to be a hippo as well.
7. A look up at the sky will tell you that one. Rather a stretch wouldn't you say?
8. Your bible quote promotes a flat earth, as was common in the ANE. It doesn't seem to support an expanding universe however.
9. Lots of ancient societies used the stars to navigate - I suppose that also vindicates their belief systems.
10. See 7.
11. And the other passages which talk about the foundations of the earth. At best you've got some contradictions, assuming the passage in Job actually suggests what you claim ;-)
13. Fairly obvious - numerous animals follow the same dictum. Nothing particularly promising there.
14. But the fossils found are much older than would be the case if the passage was correct. Of course, we have a perfectly good explanation for the fossil findings, and it has nothing to do with a global flood ;-)
Havoc,
ReplyDeleteYou make some reasonable comments, but how can you suggest that the Bible supports a flat earth?
The Bible's commentary on dinosaurs might be a bit of a stretch, but it is interesting that ancient cultures do have incredible pictures of dinosaurs suggesting that they were contemporaneous with humans.
Mann: You make some reasonable comments, but how can you suggest that the Bible supports a flat earth?
ReplyDeleteFor a start, the quote you used above suggests a flat earth with the heavens pitched like a tent above it. You can't pitch a tent "above" a sphere.
Like others in the ANE, the Isrealites thought the earth was flat and the heavens were a dome above (the term for firmament in Genesis generally means something solid), and it is reflected in their myths.
Mann: suggesting that they were contemporaneous with humans
You're funny. Embellishment of encounters with crocodiles and similar creatures, coupled with some fossil finds would explain the fanciful artwork you claim is suggestive. The lack of any contemporaneous finds of human (or even proto-human, or early mammal) with dinosaurs weighs incredibly heavily against your point.
Daniel, what you need to demonstrate, to even begin to make your point, is that the bible contains accurate information which was not, and could not, have been known by the people of the time.
ReplyDeleteThings like the water cycle, the number of stars, weather and season signs etc are all things which were known in the time they were written by the ancient Israelites. There appears to be nothing which indicates a "stunning" knowledge of science which would imply something other than a human mind behind the writing.
Proponents of theistic evolution claim that God created man by evolutionary processes, that is man is said to have evolved from lower forms of life. If this were the case, then all life, including man and his presumed ancestors, would have been subject to death throughout history. This is because theistic evolution depends on death to weed out lesser fit organisms to make room for the development and refinement of surviving species. However, the Bible tells us that death came about as a result of sin. If Adam had not eaten of the forbidden fruit, if he had not fallen into a life of constant sin terminated by death, what need is there for redemption? None! What all of this means is that we cannot give up the Genesis account of creation, but we could the doctrine of Geocentrism and get along.
ReplyDeleteScriptural Difficulties with Theistic Evolution
ReplyDeleteGenesis 3 unmistakably asserts that death overcame man when he transgressed God’s command. Death, according to Scripture, had no hold on man until some later period following his creation. This flies directly in the face of theistic evolution theory. Still, proponents of theistic evolution may try to skirt these passages by regarding the opening portion of Genesis as non-historical. But such recourse can only lead them to even more disastrous avenues. Theistic evolutionists can allegorize Genesis as much as they want, but to do so, they have to contend against Scripture itself. Paul, in such passages as Romans 5 and 1 Corinthians 15, clearly treats the Genesis account in historical terms and he speaks of human death as God’s judgment on sin. It was for this very reason—to answer for God’s punishment for our sin—that Christ died. This is the very heart of the Gospel. Quite frankly, Theistic Evolution, in my opinion, is a contradiction in terms, somewhat like talking about burning snowflakes.
But if human death were not God’s judgment on sin, as proponents of theistic evolution would have to maintain, what then did Christ die for? Those clinging to theistic evolution dogma would have to admit that Jesus lied when He claimed to die for our sins. Consequently, the atonement is robbed of all meaning, while the Gospel is hollowed to an empty shell. In their attempt to fuse evolutionary theory with Scripture, theistic evolutionists only wind up perverting God’s Good News into no news, as we remain dead in our sins.
ReplyDeleteAndrey,
ReplyDeleteI agree with you that there are irreconcialible differences between Darwin and Jesus.
Andrey, humans didn't evolve from "lower" forms of life, simply "earlier" forms of life.
ReplyDeleteAndrey: However, the Bible tells us that death came about as a result of sin.
The bible is wrong. Sorry to break it to you.
Andrey: what need is there for redemption?
So, since Jesus'sacrifice was all a part of your deityies plan, then so Adam & Eve's sin must also have been.
Why are they held responsible for something which your God had planned?
Daniel, it's strange and seemingly irrational that you're so willing to throw out the theory which is supported by objective rational empirical investigation and go with the book of myth written by ignorant peoples from thousands of years ago.
Havoc,
ReplyDeleteIt is equally strange to me that you deny the direct evidence of design we see all around us in favor of placing your faith in the say-so of the present scientific concensus.`
Daniel, the so called "direct evidence of design" you've presented (and I've seen in other venues) has not been shown to be evidence for design. That you accept it as such shows both ignorance, and an ideological commitment to your belief system which favours reinforcement above truth-finding.
ReplyDeleteHavoc,
ReplyDeleteAdmittedly, I do have my commitments, but so do you. However, I pursue my commitments honestly. I don't think that God requires distortion to fulfill His purposes.
Daniel, you seem to dismiss scientific findings, not on the grounds of problems with those findings, but because those hypothesis cause problems for your beliefs.
ReplyDeleteYour ridiculous claims of humans and dinosaurs co-existing on a previous thread would seem to be one example - what do you think is the age of the earth? :-)
I'm not going to claim that I'm without bias, but I do try to rely upon evidence and arguments - thing you consistently fail to provide for the grand claims you make, even when pressed on the issue :-)