My Response to Someone in Favor of Banning this Therapy:
If I believed as you do that that gay-lifestyle-change therapy (GLCT) was so destructive, forbidding it might make far more sense to me, or at least publishing something about the dangers or possible guidelines.
If I believed as you do that that gay-lifestyle-change therapy (GLCT) was so destructive, forbidding it might make far more sense to me, or at least publishing something about the dangers or possible guidelines.
However, much of this kind of therapy is merely supportive of
gays trying to leave a lifestyle that is highly self-destructive, according to all
of the stats. (Perhaps the reported negative consequences gays have experienced
in GLCT were not due to GLCT, but to the dangers inherent in this lifestyle.)
I certainly agree with you that some of our deepest
inclinations are difficult or even impossible to change. Some require a
miracle. Consequently, maturity is often a matter of learning how to live with
our self-destructive impulses – and I certainly have my share – rather than eradicating
them. If some therapists have subjected their clients to extreme measures, like
shock therapy, to eradicate these impulses, I would certainly join you in
questioning their usefulness.
However, I would remind you that extreme measures have been
used – and they are still used – in treating depression. However, would you ban
ALL therapies for depression because of these aberrations? Certainly not, and
no one else suggests this extreme course of action. Why then do we find this
extreme reaction in regards to GLCT?
I think that the answer is one of politics, pressure groups,
peer-intimidation and political correctness. In this regards, please see: http://mannsword.blogspot.com/2011/03/politically-correct-american.html
Nevertheless, I have met many ex-gays who have been helped
with their same-sex attraction (SSA) through counseling. Some even have
subsequently married. Some admit that they still struggle with SSA, while
others claim that they are no longer troubled by SSA. Should we believe their
testimonies? Why not! All of the studies gauging therapeutic success rely upon
self-reporting. Why then just call self-reporting about SSA into question? I
think that this reflects the bias of those who oppose this form of therapy.
Mann: Why then just call self-reporting about SSA into question? I think that this reflects the bias of those who oppose this form of therapy.
ReplyDeleteDaniel, you need to actually engage with the studies which show that these so called "therapies" don't actually work. They rely upon a number of different indicators, including self reports, as well as rigorous statistical analysis of the results.
That you simply accept the self reports of some people as evidence of the success of these treatments shows that you're really not interested in what works, but rather more interested in what supports your beliefs.
Havok,
DeleteYou're engaging in personal attacks again!
There are studies that do show that this therapy brings positive results.
If you think that it doesn't work or that it is destructive, then it is up to you to bring forth your studies. Again, you will find that you too are restricted by the "evidence" of self-reporting.
Besides,
DeleteWe counsel people for all manner of self-identified problems. Clearly, some "therapy" has been harmful.
However, it seems more appropriate to critique the harmful elements than to ban all therapy associated with a self-identified problem.
Here's a report from the American Psychological Association, regarding so called "gay cures" and their innefectiveness - "Appropriate Therapeutic Responses
ReplyDeleteto Sexual Orientation"
Regarding the effectiveness of "Sexual Orientation Change Efforts", the report concludes:
"The limited number of rigorous early studies and complete lack of rigorous recent prospective research on SOCE limits claims for the efficacy and safety of SOCE. Within the early group of studies, there are a small number of rigorous studies of SOCE, and those focus on the use of aversive treatments. These studies show that enduring change to an individual’s sexual orientation is uncommon and that a very small minority of people in these studies showed any credible evidence of reduced same-sex sexual attraction, though some show lessened physiological arousal to all sexual stimuli. Compelling evidence of decreased same-sex sexual behavior and increased attraction to and engagement in sexual behavior with the other sex was rare. Few studies provided strong evidence that any changes produced in laboratory conditions translated to daily life. We found that nonaversive and recent approaches to SOCE have not been rigorously evaluated. Given the limited amount of methodologically sound research, we cannot draw a conclusion regarding whether recent forms of SOCE are or are not effective.
We found that there was some evidence to indicate that individuals experienced harm from SOCE. Early studies do document iatrogenic effects of aversive forms of SOCE. High dropout rates characterize early
aversive treatment studies and may be an indicator that research participants experience these treatments as harmful. Recent research reports indicate that there are individuals who perceive they have been harmed and others who perceive they have benefited from nonaversive SOCE. Across studies, it is unclear what specific individual characteristics and diagnostic criteria would prospectively distinguish those individuals who will later perceive that they have succeeded and benefited from nonaversive SOCE from those who will later perceive that they have failed or been harmed."
Daniel, now that I've provided evidence contradicting your claims for the efficacy of these therapies, and indicating the harm they can cause, I hope you'll actually engage in this discussion and produce reasonable evidence of your own, rather than relying solely upon anecdotes.
ReplyDeleteThe above report states the following regarding the current research on "Sex Orientation Change Efforts":
ReplyDelete"Much of the recent research on SOCE has had serious
methodological problems. Although this research
area presents serious challenges (e.g., obtaining a
representative sample, finding appropriate measures,
and using evidence-based constructs), many of the
problems were avoidable. Many of the problems
in published SOCE research indicate the need for
improvement in the journal review process, for instance.
Problems included: (a) violations of statistical measures,
(b) measures that were not evaluated prior to use, and
(c) inappropriate conclusions drawn from data."
Unless you have access to studies which the authors of the APA do not (which I doubt), or you can demonstrate that the APA's methodology in assessing studies was flawed (possible, but unlikely) and can then demonstrate some studies which present SOCE in a positive light, your point has been refuted.
I hope you will acknowledge this fact Daniel, and modify your claims and beliefs accordingly.
Even if you are right (and sex SOCE doesn't work)or the study is right (but its just another bit of propaganda - and I'm sure it is, since I've met many who are happily ex-gay), all of this is irrelevant to my point:
DeleteIf someone wants to leave the "gay" life, why not let him? If he wants to find a counselor to help him focus or encourage him along the way, what's wrong with that? If he just needs someone to talk to and to reflect back his observations, how can this constitute the problem that gays claim it does.
If there have been cases where real harm has been done, then just send out alerts about that particular form of intervention and not ban the entire enterprise as the forces of repression are seeking to do. There has been harm done to patients seeking help for all kinds of things. In order to be consistent, well, let's just ban it all!
Why do you have therapy in the first place? Surely a bit of prayer and someone would be 'healed'; but Christians know this doesn't work with physical health (despite the Bible telling very clearly that a sign of a Christian is that s/he will be able to heal the sick).
ReplyDeleteI certainly don't agree with banning something - if someone is unhappy about their sexuality, then it may help (however this position clearly notes that sexuality is not something people chose!). Moreover I’ve known non-Christian homosexuals who have in later life married and had kids. Just as I know married, outwardly heterosexual Christians, with children, leave their partner and proclaim themselves homosexual. Sexuality is fluid and there is a broad spectrum of sexual diversity, from exclusively heterosexual to bi-sexual to homosexual.
Yet the fact remains that Christians (or a certain species of Christian) seems overly interested in the sexuality and sex lives of others and often spread slander and malice – in addition to a good deal of self-righteousness – condemning homosexual people. Hence it is no wonder some people seek to change their sexuality.
What would really help homosexuals is to live in a tolerant society that didn’t use homosexuals as a means of ‘easy’ and ‘cheap’ righteousness. Perhaps a little more obsession with Ex 20:16, Proverbs 31:9, Isaiah 3:14-15, Zechariah 7:10, Matt 5: 16, Matt 5:39, Matt 25:35; Jn 13:14 might win Christians the right, once again, to direct public morals, but at the present the obsession is Lev 18:22 and issues which have more to do with the morality of others than their own (which I think explains why overtly Christian societies score “well” when it comes to conservative and even punitive laws and attitudes to homosexuality, but rather less so when it comes to personal relationships and political and economic corruption – the USA, as a whole, for example scores poorly when it comes to divorce, single-parent families, teen pregnancy, violent crime, incarceration and social inequality – however it is the Bible Belt and morally conservative states which score the worst).
I think it is time for Christians to leave the subject of homosexuality for the time being and put their own house in order, before thinking they have either the right or ability to direct the morality of others. They clearly don’t!
Thanks for your response. My response was so lengthy that I had to make it into another posting:
Deletehttp://mannsword.blogspot.com/2012/06/christians-have-no-right-to-speak.html
Reparative therapists
ReplyDeleteclaim to be trying to help people who are strugling with the same sex attractions.
But instead it hurts because it promotes the view that people with same-sex attractions can really be "cured" or transformed into heterosexuals. The problem with this is that this is really just an illusion and not true.
http://bit.ly/Jck4ZV
All research is suggesting that people change their behavior and their values. There is no indication that the very basic desires to change as the result of the therapy.
There are studies that show that most people who undergo this therapy have a loss in their mental health.
The same people who would be willing to waive the prohibited behavior, often also would love to believe that they can actually "convert" not only the lifestyle, but the real attractions completely. They end up discovering years later that this approach is not the case and are devastated. This results in some cases of suicide and leaving the faith.
Besides all the mainstream psychiatric, psychological work, social, the World Health Organization advisory groups and even many experts among people who have been involved in "reparative therapy" mostly agree with that. Does not work in shifting the focus.
According to those who believe such conversions, the success rate is about 0.4%
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_exod1.htm
Warren Throckmorton, a psychologist and professor at the evangelical Grove City College recently surveyed 239 men in the "mixed orientation marriages" in which her husband is attracted to other men and women is heterosexual. About half of the males had been through a conversion therapy.
Throughout their marriage, men, "Go for the sex even increased ..." and "attractions for your spouse declined," according to Throckmorton.
Another study by Mark Yarhouse, a researcher at Regent University - which was founded by Pat Robertson - reached the same conclusion.
The leader of the Exodus, the largest audience of people (thousands) that changed from a gay to the heterosexual lifestyle admits that this does not include the end of same-sex attraction for 99.9% of the group.
"There was a change in our beliefs about therapy focused change orientation and do not believe that it is effective."
Southern Baptist Theological Seminary President Al Mohler
“We understand that sexual attraction and a profile of someone’s sexuality is a complex of factors, some of which are certainly not chosen,” he continued. “It’s not just a matter of choice. It’s not something that’s turned on or turned off.”
Dr. Spitzer
"If people can recognize that being gay is something that can not be changed and that efforts to change will be disappointing and may be harmful if it can be more widely known it would be great."
Those who want to change their sexual behavior because they believe it is a sin can find help with a priest or councellor who can help them to succeed with, modesty, chastity, honesty, faithfulness and patience, without charlatans who can not work to change its basic attractions.
Without clear evidence that a treatment is effective it can not in good conscience, recommend an unproven treatment that can cause undo pain, suffering and death
Jean-Pierre,
ReplyDeleteAlthough God can take away our sinful attractions, for the most part, it seems that He doesn't.
I therefore have little trouble accepting those findings. But I would add that the same pertains to depression, OCD or other things for which people seek counseling.
In light of this, I think that wise counseling can help us live with our weaknesses and serve3 God despite these liabilities.
Actually, He promises to convert our weaknesses into strengths:
2 Cor. 12:9-10 But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
I can personally attest to this.